SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Pilot Life, the show where we sit down with people who are passionate about aviation. My name is Brendan. I've been a commercial airline pilot for over 20 years, and in that time I've heard some incredible stories. This is a show, but I share those with you. Welcome aboard. Holy smokes, Monday, you start upgrade training.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thanks. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

That's a big deal. Welcome everyone to the Pilot Life Podcast, a Pilot Life Show. This is a little bit different because we're sitting here with two people. The first two guest podcast episodes, so congratulations. We've got Callie, we've got Eric. And, you know, I have a kid who has expressed interest in becoming a pilot. And also I have people that have you know reached out and said, hey, I'm I'm thinking about becoming a pilot. I don't know where to start. And I don't have those those answers because I'm not living it like you guys have, I like you guys are, right? And so I thought it would be a good idea to bring in the experts. And you guys is your names were thrown into the hat as the local experts. First of all, we are here at the PFA, HQ, as Bobby calls it. That's the Pacific Flat Academy headquarters, Honolulu, Hawaii. Thank you guys so much for inviting us back to this building. Now, Cal, you recently graduated or you've been or you've been out for a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I've been out for about a year and a half.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

About a year and a half. Eric, you are give us a brief history about where you are currently in your flight training.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Sure. So I'm preparing for my instrument check riding.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

So you got your private here. And then do they go right into your instrument training or it is. Okay. Let's say that someone watching is thinking about becoming a pilot, or like me, I have a son who has asked me, Dad, I'm interested in becoming a pilot, and he's in his teenage years. Where should we start? What's the best, Eric? Why don't we start with you? What's the best thing? What did you do when you had the interest of becoming a pilot?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

I went online and I looked at different flight schools that were in my area. Yeah. Staying local was important to me, uh, so I could stay close to family. And so I evaluated the schools that were closest to me and chose the one that I felt was best.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah. What are the things that you would um look at? Would would you look at like the Yelp stars on the flight school?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

So uh I was looking more for um aircraft availability, uh, that the school had their own maintenance department, uh, that they didn't really have any issues with flight time reserving aircraft, so they had plenty of instructors, that their program was set up so that way it was streamlined and as efficient as possible.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Yeah. Did you do any flying before you started to look for a flight school? I did take a discovery flight. You did. Where at? Uh at Pacific Flight Academy.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

You did.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

What was it like? Uh it was a wonderful experience. Yeah. Did they sit you in the left seat or the right seat? I was sat in the left seat. Left seat. And you go up and you take off off of four right here. You do, yeah. And then you what you go out over the wall?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

We ended up going um to the west side. Okay. I got to do um some climbs, some descents, turns. It felt amazing. Yeah. And so I decided this is for me. I gotta try it out. Did you come out here and take and take that first flight?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I did, yeah. I had my Discovery flight also at Pacific Flight Academy.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah. This is not sponsored by Pacific Flight Academy. They are they are the the host. And that's kind of one of the things that I wanted you to know is depending on where you live, a lot of people are gonna do what you did, Eric, right? They're gonna look, that's that's what I did is I looked at the flight schools in the local area because that's the easiest. It was close to my parents and close to my family. And if someone is thinking about it, do you think that first step should be just going out and hopping on a plane?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

I think that was the best first step that I could have taken since I I didn't have flying experience just like Eric prior to coming in. When I was in that discovery flight, I'm sure same for you. Um, our instructor gave us the opportunity to take the flight controls, which I was not expecting. I thought we were just touring the island real quick, coming back down, and they had me turn, climb, and descend. And I was like, oh my gosh, I am doing this. Yeah, that's where I was like, this is crazy. I'm flying an airplane in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So I was hooked. Yeah. I think that's the best way just to jump right in and get going.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

It's great to go up and experience because a small airplane feels so different than sitting in the back of sitting in the back of an airliner. And then, like you were saying, sometimes just that thought of holding onto the controls and actually flying, right? You're like, oh my gosh. I think anyone, even if you don't want to be a pilot, should at least once go out and do a flight just to say, I've flown an airplane, right? It was pretty incredible. Get that mic and just drop it. That's it. That's it. That's it. So um, okay, so someone has decided that okay, they went out on that first flight. Eric, what do you guys do here? Like if someone says, if they come in for that first flight, so they can call you and say, hey, I want to come out for a flight, and you can and you'll and you'll get that set up. Is that right? That's correct. Okay, so they come out and they go on that first flight and they walk back into this building and they're like, now what?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Uh the next steps is that we make contact with them, set up uh when their schedule would match up with one of our qualified CFIs. Yeah. Uh, and then get them started on a first lesson. Yeah. We try to stay really transparent with them and create more of a family atmosphere so that way there's comfort in the learning uh environment that's created here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

You know what I loved when I walked into this building, and it kind of gave me this little flashback to when I was in flight school, is out here in this main lobby filled with flight students, studying for check rides, talking airplanes, right? It's it did feel like it was that kind of environment, which I also had at my own flight school. Is there was a lot of that's how those friendships form, right? And it's nice to be going through that experience with you know, someone. So you start working on your private Callie. How how did how did it go working working on your private pilot's license?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

It took me a little bit longer. I I had to work full time, so I wasn't able to dedicate my whole schedule to coming and flying every day. That would be the goal. Um, but I was coming out maybe three, two days a week. Okay. Um, so it did take longer, it took about eight months, I would say, for me to get my private license, just coming those frequent times. But it was good. It was a lot. Um, I was able to do my solos, which was incredible. My CFI was amazing. And actually, Bobby was a huge help. The first time I called in, he was the one that answered the phone because back then they didn't have front desk workers, they just worked out of the hangar.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So everything was really straightforward, presented to me. It was streamlined. The maintenance hangar was right next to us at that time. So if I was doing a ground lesson, I could come early and hang with the maintenance guys, ask them all my questions. So that was always helpful.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. Eric, I went through a part 141 school, which was a very structured right, like there were certain stage checks that you would do, and the lesson plans were all built out, and we all kind of went along on the same path. And I know that you went through one of part 61, right? What is the difference for someone out there when they hear, oh, this is a part 61 school versus a part 141 program?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

So there are quite a few differences. Um, part 61 is going to allow the student to move at their own pace. So if they wanted to be a part-time pilot, work full-time, they wouldn't be held to the same kind of checkpoints along the road. Uh, it can be cheaper depending on how you structure it. Right. Uh, it also allows the instructors the autonomy to uh teach the skills in the order that they feel is best for a pilot.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

But all the pilots are held to the same standard when they come for their check ride, right? Of course. Yeah. So if you go to a private pilot's check ride on a and you've learned part 61 or part 141, we're both going up against the same standard. You one is not necessarily easier or harder than the other one.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

No, there is um our there are our requirement differences. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Okay. So the times that are required to go for a certain stage check may be a little bit different. Okay. I'm I'm sure people always ask, like, what are the costs? Right. And I can remember as a flight student going through and I would charge $500 and it would be gone in a week, right? Because it was $140 for a Piper Arrow. I assume that's gone up now. Is that safe? You would be you'd be good for a flight a week. Wow. Is is there a number that is out there that that people are told this is how much it costs for a private pilot's license or you know an airline transport pile, or you know, whatever the license is?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

So I think that there is for um 141 schools, okay. Uh schools that offer uh programs where it's fixed, and this is the number of hours that you're going to fly, these are the classroom hours that you're going to get. They can put a sticker to it.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Um, at a part 61 school, it's a little bit different if you're flying at your own pace because you may require more hours to get it done, in which case it will be more expensive.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

True. Yeah. So if you do have to work full time to pay for those lessons, you may not get the information in as quick as possible, right? Is there an ideal amount of lessons a week do you think that people should take as they learn to kind of process this? Is it every day? Is it every other day? What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

When I was doing the two to three a week, I felt that that was sufficient. It was enough for me to take all the information in, process it. I would do my flight, maybe have a day break in between, go for another flight, and then at that time I'd be able to see what I was lacking the first one and fix it for the second one, come back the next week fresh and still have everything in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So I think that was a comfortable pace for me, the two to three days a week.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

When you start off in private, two times a week is good to start off. It can be a lot of um information all at once, and we don't want to create overload. Um, so I usually recommend uh two times a week. If you're flying in the aircraft for an hour each time, then you should probably be spending about three hours outside the aircraft studying. Um so that would be for the first few weeks, and then you could start flying three times a week. Yeah. Just to make sure that you got over that initial learning hump.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah. I think that when when I went through with the flight school that I did, it was you either flew Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. That sounds very 141. Yeah, you know, it was very structured like that. And there were some days where you felt like I haven't even kind of processed what happened on that last one before you are, you know, it does push you. Do you guys do stage checks on a part 61 program? Like, is there a practice check ride before you would go up?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yes, yeah. You get the nervous energy, but it also would be the same nervous energy reflected in your check ride. So I think that that was beneficial. It kind of showed you how I would perform mentally and in the plane on that check ride day. So it helped in my mind at least alleviate some of that nervous energy, that excitement that you get walking into the check ride.

unknown 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Because you already answered some of the questions that you could possibly get. You've gone through the maneuvers, and I thought it was really awesome. I like that part.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Would you go with a different instructor so they kind of had that feel of this is someone strange now?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, the pressure's on. New instructor, and they would I don't know if they still do it that way, but they would take um like the certain check instructors, so they would really put some good pressure on you, ask some questions, and then it was the same as if I was sitting up there with a DP. If I made a mistake on a maneuver, we're not going back to fix it. We're gonna debrief on the ground. It's just moving through the check ride exactly how it would have been.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah. And explain what a DP is a designated pilot examiner. Okay, yeah. So so that's the person who will actually give you your private pilot's license, right? So you get sent up with a check pilot, maybe someone who is experienced in that area give you a mock check ride to get kind of some of those nerves out to show you that you can do it, and then you go up for your actual check ride. Yes, right. Eric, what do you tell someone if they're not successful on a check ride? Because getting used to a check ride, in fact, I think we were just talking about this of there's nerves that you have to get used to as a pilot because you get evaluated a lot, you know, a lot, especially if you're in a program to learn to become an airline pilot because you're going to be checked at least every year, if not more often, right? Um, and so if someone gets really nervous, what what would you tell them or how would you approach that?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

I I like to fly with uh as many instructors as I can. I have a primary instructor, but I really like to fly with a bunch of different people because it helps me learn something with each person that's sitting next to me. Yeah, pick up something from them. And it also allows me to be more comfortable with flying with different people. Um, so one thing I would tell people to do to prepare for that and to not be as nervous is to fly with a bunch of different instructors, get that experience. Um, you don't necessarily get to know your designated pilot examiner um personally, right? But just flying and seeing how other people doing something in an aircraft can allow you to get more comfortable. Yeah. Um, I also usually will go into um progress checks, stage checks with the idea that I'm gonna learn where I can improve, and that's gonna make me a better, safer pilot. Yeah. And so I might be kicking myself that I forgot to do something my instructor had, you know, shown me. But on the other side, I'm gonna come out being better for it, and I'm gonna be able to go into my next progress check and show that I know what I should. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

You do the debrief after, and there's always something that comes up where they're like, Oh, I'm not sure if you noticed this, or I would just tweak this the smallest amount, or do something, and it's oh, every day you come to fly, it's a learning experience. You never just walk away and say, That was the most perfect flight in the entire world. There's always something to take from it, something to learn, something to improve on.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

You sound a lot like the blue angel pilots that I've sat down with and talked to.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I'm honored.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

No, because they do the same thing, and you would think, oh, they're perfect, right? But they all, all of them, every single flight, could have done something just a little bit better. Yeah. And so I think that's also important to point out of like, it's okay to have failures, it's okay to not have a perfect flight. And we're gonna evaluate that in the debrief and talk about how we can come back and get it next time, right? And so um, is that a check ride? Like, if you fail a check ride, is that if your goal is to be to the airlines a game over event? Of course not, right? There's thousands of pilots who have not passed a check ride, right? It's just what did you learn from that experience and how can you prepare better for the next time? You get your private, and then you here, what do you what would you start to work on after you get your private license?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

So you uh after private, we usually will move on to instrument. Um, when you're working on your instrument rating, you're also building your hours that are required for your commercial pilots license.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

What if someone just wants to get their private?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

That's totally fine. And yeah, I I love people who just want to be private pilots. Yeah, they want to stay in general aviation, they're usually fun pilots.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah. I think oftentimes we get into this thing of, oh, everyone wants to become a blank pilot, right? It's like, no, it's also good just to become a private pilot. I would encourage pilots to also get their instrument rating because there's so many incidents and accidents out there from private pilots who have not had that training, and it's such incredible training to be able to fly in the clouds. What part of your training did you find was the most enjoyable? Was it all equal or was there some kind of training here that you did you enjoy instrument flying better?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

What what was your We we actually just talked about this while you were getting set up? Um, I was telling him we're talking about his prep for his instrument check ride, and that was my my favorite check ride. That was the part I enjoyed the training the most was the instrument.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Why?

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Fly in the in the clouds, bad weather, doing all the night training approaches. I thought it was that's when I felt I was a real pilot after getting the private pilot's license. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

If someone wants to become an airline pilot, and if they were to come in on that first day and say, hey, I want to go become I want to go fly for brand X or brand Y, um what do you what are the different pathways that you think about are the ways to get there now?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Um so I I did my training a little different. After I got my commercial, I went straight into my multi. After my multi, I worked for a skydive company and then I started flying part 135 doing cargo.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

So instead of doing the CFI route, I kind of jumped straight into work and went went that way. And I thought that that was perfect for me. It was rewarding. I was learning different things every day, flying with new captains. The skydiving was really fun. Um that was a fun job. Yeah. But there's not just one channel that you have to go through, there's multiple things. You can tow pilot, you can see a five, you can do surveys. We have civil air patrol in Hawaii, cargo, skydive.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

It's a lot. There's a lot of options for you.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah. Right now, looking at the market, uh and the way things are moving, it looks like the easiest thing might be to uh be an instructor. I'm a former uh high school teacher. Okay. I feel like instruction will come easily to me. Um and uh I do like the idea of being able to uh build my hours by helping other people learn how to fly.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah. What are those traits of the best instructors that you guys had? What did they do?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Honestly, I would say it's it's honesty. Um it's not the instructor that passes you along and says, Oh, you did great, and really you honestly sucked that day. Um, it's the ones that are kind-hearted and they know how to be approachable while giving direction. I think that was the most helpful for me is having a very direct instructor instructor um to help me stay on track. Someone didn't just float me along to get me through the program and they got paid for the day. It was someone that took the time, sat me down, and said, This is where we need to improve, this is where we're lacking, this is what was good. And they did it just with little emotion, um, just very straightforward, professional. I liked that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, the professionalism is definitely important. Um I also like the they don't need to be your friend, but it's nice to know that they care about you and they care about the success and um the forward progress that you're making.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Uh almost kind of like a parent, you know, they're excited for your um successes and then they help you on your challenges.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah. Or what would you say to someone if maybe that their the way that they learn doesn't match up well with the instructor that they're paired with?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Going back to the honesty factor, to be able to sit down with your CFI and just say, I I appreciate you going out of the way and helping, but there's something that's just clashing. And it if you don't get along with your instructor or you don't have learning teaching styles that match up, there's so many people out there that you can just talk to someone else because you want you want it to be worth your time, worth your effort. You don't want to come into school stressed or already feeling anxious before the flight even begins. So if you're walking into a room where you know it's gonna almost cause more stress, I don't think that that is worth it. I think it's worth having the conversation to find someone you really get along with. Um, I think that's the most productive way.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah. It's important in that school culture to be at a place where they will encourage you to um speak openly, honestly about things. Uh I know that at my school, uh, we're encouraged that if a lesson didn't go well or if we feel that our learning style doesn't match with our instructor's style, that we can go to the front desk. Uh, we can, if we don't feel comfortable talking to our instructor directly, and they'll help us find an instructor who might have a style that better matches ours.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Have you had a feeling yet, Eric? You're here in your instrument training. Have you had a feeling that you've come up against something that you felt like you weren't going to be able to do? I definitely have had many of those moments. Yeah. And then what do you do in those moments?

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Um, well, I don't resign. I keep pushing at it. And um, I'll usually try to look for the answers in other places. My first place is usually go to my peers or to my instructors, other people that are in my community. Um, but I will also, I'm a book person, so I'll try to find the answer in books. Yeah. Uh and I have more recently started looking online.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah. You probably have to be a little careful now, right? I I didn't have this back when I was going through flight school. Like we had to really dig to find a video of an airplane taking off, right? And now you can go online, and there's in my mind what very low-time pilots giving advice like that's what you should follow, right? I mean, how do you how do you manage that in this day and age of I want to get the information from you, Cal. You are my instructor, not necessarily go online and watch videos on how to do a stall and a sling aircraft, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

My instructor was pretty good. So I'm a visual learner, and she took the time out of her day to find YouTube videos that aligned with what she was teaching. So she's texted me some links that way I could watch the procedure before would come to the flight that day if it was something new, a stall or the lazy eight was the death of me. Oh man, I'm so sorry that you will have to go through the lazy eight.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

When you did your check ride, did they cover up your uh altimeter?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

He did.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

He did on mine too. He did. And I'm like, there's no way this is gonna work. I'm like, I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm not gonna be able to do this. Right? And you go up and it's like, what is it? Like increasing pitch, increasing band, I mean what whatever it is. And we did the whole, you know, lazy eight, and I'm like, oh god, and he breached it is good to know that the things that affected pilots 20 or 30 years ago still affect pilots now. So your instructor knew that you were probably gonna go online and look anyways, and that's maybe a great way to do it is let's funnel where this person goes to get that info.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

It helps too because with her sending me the videos, and it was something we talked about. Um, we talked about teaching styles the first time I had my discovery flight with her. I said, I'm very visual, I'm very hands-on. Reading is not my strong suit. If I sit down and read it, I'll have to read it five times to retain that information versus just seeing it and acting it. So she took time out of her day off schedule, went home all night, sent me a bunch of videos for all of the private pilot maneuvers. And then each day before we'd have our lesson, she would say, We're working on this today. So I would watch the video, have a little bit of a background idea of what she was talking about, and then come into the lesson. And it was a lot easier having her explain it to me after already seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

But I'd say g just going on YouTube or online yourself could be kind of scary because there is a lot of just misinformation out there.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

And it's something you wouldn't know until you run into a problem. So the biggest money saver for me doing a part sixty one was doing the ground school online. And then I would come in with my questions, things I wasn't super clear about, and then I would be paying the instructor the ground time and we would go over those specific things and then just her periodically checking in with B.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah. Okay. Um, I want to talk about flight advice. Okay. And the great thing about advice, I say that there's two great things. It's free and you don't have to take it, right? So that's the great thing about advice. So I'm going to give you guys someone asked me uh a question and I want to get your guys' thoughts on it, okay? So they are a commercial pilot, they have about 800 hours, but they want to work on their bachelor's degree because that sometimes is required by airlines, sometimes it's not. It kind of depends on what is the current market. Um, and they've talked about maybe not flying for a while and then going and working on their bachelor's degree, getting that done, and then returning back to flying. What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I thought with having the other job and doing flight school at the same time, it was beneficial. I I would be worried that if I left flying for X amount of months, I would come back and there'd be so many muscle memory items or skills that I would then be lacking in.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah. Eric. There are a lot of um hybrid programs out there where you can continue flying and you're allowed to do online courses, and sometimes your pilot's license will even count towards credits so you don't have to do as much um online classes. Yeah, uh that could be a solution if having a degree is that important.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah. Callie, what is your one piece of advice for someone who is just thinking about getting into flying? Doesn't matter your age, doesn't matter why you want to get into flying, but what what would you tell that person?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

I would tell them that their success is their own. So it's not something you can base off someone else. If Eric and I both start flight school the same day and he does his solo two months before I solo, that has nothing to do with me and my training. Is I'm my success is very different. It's not linear. You're gonna have good days and bad days, and it's not something you can ever use to compare yourself to another pilot. Um, everyone does things differently, you learn differently, you have different paces, different strong suits, different weaknesses. So I would just say make sure if you're feeling down or you're have a lot of people starting around the same time as you, just to keep your eye in your own lane almost.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah. Eric, one piece of advice the enjoy the flight.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Amen, bro. That's it. I mean, always remember why you're doing it. Like, and hopefully it's because of the love of flying.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Uh focus on the positives, and you're always going to be able to get better at the struggles, the trying uh challenges. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Well, thank you guys so much for taking the time to share your experiences. Eric, all the best as you move forward. Congratulations on the captain position. It's exciting. And uh thank you everyone for checking out the podcast. If you have any more questions, where would you send people if they have questions about I want to become a pilot? Is there one place that they go? Obviously, they can check out the PFA site because there's a lot of info there if they are interested in this program. But maybe just do what you did, like Google what are the local places to learn how to fly. And I would definitely go out and tour the building and tour the facility and meet the people there before you ever sign anything. Yeah, oh definitely. Yeah, I mean, you want to make sure that you've that that you're gonna fit in there.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Accessibility is huge. Yeah. I mean, if you're trying to get in touch with the school and they're not calling you back, yeah it's a red red flag, right? That's it. That's it. So yeah, if uh if they have open arms and and they show you around, they give you the tour and it feels like a good place.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, probably is. Yeah, I like that. Well, thank you guys so much for taking the time and thank you for checking out the podcast, everyone. We'll see you next time.