Max Lyons / Hillsboro Aviation

Pull up a chair and sit down for a great conversation with Max. A 4th generation logger and world traveler, his career path changed when he ventured out on a solo trip that would inspire his dreams and set him down the path of aviation.  A remarkable adventure full of surprises! 

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“The information provided in this video is for entertainment purposes only. This is a personal vlog and the opinions expressed are solely those of the participants and do not represent any associations or institutions they may or may not be affiliated with unless expressly stated

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Pilot Life, the show where we sit down with people who are passionate about aviation. My name is Brendan. I've been a commercial airline pilot for over 20 years, and in that time I've heard some incredible stories. This is the show that I share those with you. Welcome aboard. We are with Max Lions. Welcome back to the Pilot Life Show, the show where we sit down with people passionate about aviation. Max, this is quite a quite a view here.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it. I I smile every time I walk in the facility or into my office.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Well, I like to start off with our kind of common connection. Tell me where you met the first time you met Mr. Lamar Haggard, my chief pilot at Horizon Airlines for decades.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, I met uh Lamar, God, I think 30 years ago or something like that. Um and I I you knew some of the management at Horizon and and um Horizon was um looking at some different flight training options, you know, in regards to helping uh to you know uh bring um you know CFIs from flight schools into the airlines. And so that's that conversation started probably a few years before Lamar joined our board of directors, and he's been on our board now for somewhere between 25, 26, 27 years as one of my board members.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

And just so people know, what is what is your current title? Where can they find you at right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Oh I'm uh CEO, owner of Hillsborough Aviation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

What would you have answered if I had asked you when you were a kid, what be before anyone puts any limits on kids' dreams and they ask you, you know, what do you want to be? That's a common question that you know we ask kids. Like, what do you want to be when you grow up? What would the answer have been?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Gosh, um, it wasn't a pilot. Uh not until my teens did I consider that. Um probably logging. And I grew up as a fourth generation logger, and uh my dad had 14 kids in his family. They were all loggers or married to loggers. Um, but I I realized quite early on after I graduated from high school that um I I probably didn't want to be a logger the rest of my life. It was paid really well, uh, but it was um a hard life. Yeah. And um, you know, I I don't think there's a day where you didn't have some type of uh pretty intense physical pain.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Aaron Powell Was that was that here here in Oregon?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

It was in Washington and Oregon. Uh my family lived in White Salmon. My dad lived in um Carson, Washington, and we logged Gifford Pinchot and the Mounthood National Forest. Do you think that his dad pushed him kind of into logging, or do you think that that was his No I mean everybody I think that was the only option back then and my dad got involved in uh during World War II uh driving um trucks uh for the war effort for railroad ties. And he was just a teen he was fifteen and uh the state troopers basically just ignored him because he was he was working towards the war effort. Um and um and then he, you know, he became I think he he made money and lost money through the years. Out at one point he owned a few thousand acres of timberland, a thousand acre ranch, uh, and then my parents were divorced and uh he had moved on with another family uh when I was pretty young. Uh but I went to work for him right out of high school, and that didn't last very long. Yeah. And then I went to work for Evergreen Helicopters as a hooker choker setter underneath sky cranes flying in uh Bell 47s, Hiller Saloys, and Bell 205s. Dangerous job? Yeah, paid really well. I think uh I read something years ago, uh probably you know, ten years after I was uh uh I'd finished logging that said it the highest paid job for for a young uh American male without a college education was fishing in the Bering Sea. I think it was crab fishing, or it was logging and uh choker setter hooking, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah. Do you think that's where kind of the thought of uh aviation kind of started to come in as you're working around these really cool?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Obviously, you're probably your first time on a helicopter, you're probably thinking, oh my gosh, this is I remember I was 10 years old and my dad we were had a barbecue uh when I was 10 years old, and a Bell 47 came and hovered in our backyard and white salmon and dropped a bag of potatoes for we were baking or barbecuing potatoes and whatever hamburgers probably. And I remember just thinking, that was so cool. That was like the bubble helicopter you saw on MASH, you know, that those were the same type of machines. Yeah. I went to work, uh, you know, I heard that there's a helicopter company in town, and and frankly, I wasn't uh really happy working for my dad. It was my brother-in-laws were working for him, and uh and it was just a pretty brutal existence working for him. Yeah. And so I quit and I went to work for Evergreen and um 12 hours a day, six days a week, and um made really good money and um and got in very good shape, but I I was um you know, I I was realizing that's not I want what I wanted to do for my career through the rest of my life. So how did you do in doing school, high school? Um I was I was probably not the best student in the class. I what made me study was just because I I love football and I wanted to play football, so and I was required to at least pass my classes to do that. And so I had a coach that I think liked me and cared about me. And uh I graduated from high school and college wasn't even a thought. It wasn't an option for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

So um tell me a little bit about your uh mom.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

My mom um was uh really kind of a renaissance woman, a painter, loved opera, uh ferocious reader, uh lovely person, very loving, kind. So you get out of high school, thoughts about maybe sports in college, or was it No, I'm that that crossed my mind, but I realized I just it wasn't I wasn't good enough to do, you know, to go to college. And so I just I worked uh worked a lot, made a lot of overtime, um, and um and I saved my money and um and I started um planning a uh trip around the world with a backpack. Um this is in um well, I started planning it probably in 72, 73. I graduated in 73, departed in 74, and I had a I had a pile of money uh so I could go do that. What do you think inspired that? You know, for me, it just I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional uh background and I just wanted to get away from it. I'd never known anybody that had done that. Um and I just went, you know, I'm I I don't know where I'm going, but I I I'm I want to go to India and the Himalayas and to Nepal. I left and I had a Stetson, uh like a more of a not a true cowboy hat, but more of kind of a dress fedora, but it was a Stetson. Yeah. And I had Levi jacket, Levi pants, and I had mountain climbing boots and mountain climbing gear with me, and I wanted to head to the Himalayas. And uh so I did. I I did it through detouring through Africa. Um, I just met somebody, said, Hey, we're going to Morocco, and great, I'll meet you there. And and then um I broke off from that group and hitchhiked across the Northern Sahara to Cairo to Egypt, across North Africa, through Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, uh, and then down into kind of central eastern Africa, uh, passed through Ethiopia just about a month after the revolution started. I had a couple of acquaintances that were murdered uh a couple weeks after I left them in Ethiopia. I spent 10 months in on the Indian subcontinent, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, India.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

As you think back on that trip now, kind of sitting here in this position, what do you think was the most valuable thing you got from that experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

You know how to well, first of all, to believe in myself and my own ability to be a good critical thinker to get out of um tough situations. I developed confidence, I kind of learned to like myself and respect myself. I realized that it was possible to live the greatest adventure imaginable in your life. And whatever that was, whatever that is, you know, you you can go for it. You can r truly, you know, go for it. You gotta have a strategy, you gotta be able to pay for it. Uh but uh, you know, that you know, your only your your only limitation is what you have in your own mind. What did your uh mom think when you said, Hey, I'm going out on it to this. Well, she never told me um I don't want you going. And years later she told me she cried every day for a month or two before I left, not knowing if I was coming back. And I was in India during the um uh state of emergency that Indara Gandhi um uh put out. And um and so nobody heard from me for about three to four months while I was in the Himalayas in India.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

So did you find some answers on that trip? Did that kind of calibrate you when you were thinking about, okay, I think I'm ready to go back now? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And I I I had, you know, I I I've done um quite a bit of mentoring of employees, and I taught martial arts for years, for uh 25 years. And uh and so I did a lot of mentoring with martial arts students as well, and and and just kind of goal setting, helping people kind of understand how to make their visions or their dreams come true and kind of what the first step of that process is.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

What is the first step?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Well, for me, like um, you know, when I went went to fly uh which was in my late twenties, um, I didn't have any money. And so I I looked up what's it cost to buy a book on uh the aerodynamics of helicopters, and I bought a book and I spent twenty-eight dollars on books to read about federal regulations and everything I needed to start doing, and I could afford the books and I could afford one flight lesson. I I was a kind of a poor contractor just starting my business and I didn't have any extra cash really.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

And so I I went and paid seventy dollars for a 30-minute demo flight and said, I think that's what I want to do. So that's kind of taking the first step. You you can use the excuse, I can't afford it. And it's gonna take me 10 to 15 years to save back in those days 40,000 or whatever it was to get all your ratings. Uh today it's a hundred thousand, you know. Um and uh you can make use that as an excuse, or you can take the first step. There's always something you can do.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Aaron Powell Do you take any time in your day now where you kind of sit like there's a lot of people that wake up in the morning, the first thing they do in the morning is like I'm just gonna spend the first five or ten minutes, I'm gonna write down stuff or I'm gonna, you know, whatever this process is.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Not daily, but uh all the time. Yeah. All the time. I'm I'm you know, I I have my daily kind of responsibilities I write down, but then I have more of my long-term goals that I want to do as well. Tell me about coming home and seeing your mom again for the first time after being on that that trip. So I was absolutely broke. I'd gotten sick in Pakistan and ended up, you know, uh needing to get back home. So when I got home, I don't really remember uh, you know, what it was like to see my mom. I I do know that I I had two cravings and one was a beer. I just and I wasn't a beer or alcohol drinker, but I just wanted a beer and I wanted uh to buy a package of ice cream sandwiches and just taste those. And I wanted to see friends. And um and when I came back, my my trip was so unusual um that I realized that um that a lot of my friends really had a hard time relating to what I had gone through. There weren't a lot of people I shared my a lot of my experiences with because people couldn't really relate to some of the things I was that I had gone through. The trip was for sure very influential. We became when I got involved with Hillsborough, got involved with a Japanese culture with martial arts, which brought me to Hillsborough Aviation. One of my students was an instructor here at Hillsborough Helicopters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Is this where you did your first helicopter lesson?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

No, my first helicopter. Yeah, I actually I think it was out of Hillsborough, but my training was out of Pearson Field at the time. Oh yeah. And my instructor was a guy from Belgium named John Salvay, who um who was a fascinating character. Um, and then I had a whole bunch of instructors because John went on as to a commercial pilot doing power line work, and I had a whole slew of other instructors. It took me about four and a half years to finish my program. How old were you when you started doing your uh flight training? My first flight training, my first flight lesson was probably around 27 or 28 years old, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Okay, so you had a few years when you got back from your worldwide trip.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Uh yeah, like six to seven years. Just working and saving money. Mm-hmm. I ran a small construction company. We did well. My uh my wife was an insurance agent. She did very well, better than I did, um, Carol. Um, and and I I just uh worked a lot and um and I made the probably best well better money than I'd ever made before, but I was working all the time. And so after I went for a demo flight in the helicopter, I went, I said, before I went for the demo flight, uh this Bill McCormick, this uh guy that helped me set goals, um, this is an interesting story. Bill had said, Hey, I'll give you a few hours. How's your construction company going? And I said, uh, yeah, it's okay, it's but I'm struggling with it. And Bill goes, Why don't you stop by on a Saturday and um and so I'll give you a few free hours of consultation, you know? And uh so I went over and we he was scrambling eggs and said, lay the yellow legal pad on the table with a pen and said, Write down five of your dreams. And I wrote down four, and I remember thinking, um, God, I can't come up with five.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Over the four.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Well, one was to see, you know, to continue to travel and see the world. One was to become a world-class martial artist, uh, one was to um to uh, you know, own a house and a place, you know, to come back to for stability. And the fifth one I couldn't figure out, and he leaned over as he's scrambling eggs, I think, and he goes, the he said, How are you doing? I said, I'm struggling on number five. And he goes, the crazier the better, it doesn't have to be practical. And it was like someone took my hand and wrote, I want to fly helicopters. And so I wrote that down, and um, and then like weeks later, one of the other Aikido instructors at a weekend seminar said, Hey, that guy sitting over there is a helicopter instructor. And I'd already shared with this other instructor what my five dreams were. And uh so I went over and sat with him and took my first lesson soon after.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

What did your wife say? Because here you are, you're successful as a construction company, and you come home and you say, uh, hey, I just did some goal setting and guess what? I'm gonna be a helicopter pilot.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I think she thought I was just joking. Yeah. And and then and when I had there was a point like two two years, maybe two and a half years into my training, I was spending a lot of money on helicopter flying and training. And I wasn't it's not like I was doing it in minimum hours because sometimes I'd fly once a month, you know, because I was busy, and then sometimes I'd fly three times a week, which is what, you know, minimum, kind of where you should be. And so I was spending money and she was kind of I think she she was surprised at how expensive it was. And uh and I yet we struggled for a bit, where you know, I think she she had originally thought she had married a businessman and and then kind of realized maybe she'd married a bum instead who was spending all his money like a drug addict on helicopter flying.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Were you a uh natural pilot? No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Worked worked hard at it and uh think I became a good instructor and a a good pilot, and uh, but uh it you know, it never came easy for me. You know, I had to I grew up running machines and ex well, not excavators until later in life, but bulldozers and all kinds of machines. So I felt comfortable with machines, but it was it was a um, you know, I flew I started flying airplanes like 30 years ago. Um and you know, uh airplanes didn't come easy to me. There, you know, as a tail spe especially the tailwheels and such. I fly a my my normal ride these days is a 1953 De Havlin Beaver that I restored. So the floats or no floats, it's uh it has amphibs, but I I made a decision to just fly it on standard gear. Yeah, as a tailwheel.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah. So is your goal at this time then get all your pilot ratings and go become a helicopter pilot?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Well, well, early yeah, early on, it was just I wanted to fly, and I really enjoyed the instruction side. Uh I was climbing from an R-22 at one point an R44, a 500, a jet ranger. You know, I was climbing in and out of aircraft constantly and from one instruction to the next and checking people out. And I just I I thought, you know, maybe I'll just, you know, fly fires at some point, like medium bell helicopters. Um I decided I didn't want to fly EMS. Um you know, there's too many tragic stories of, you know, car accidents and children and stuff that I just didn't have the temperament to go through that, I think. Um and maybe to make money, because the pay was pretty bleak, uh maybe I'll build a house here and there, you know, and buy a piece of land, build a house and uh and flip a house, and that's you know where we'll kind of you know be okay with enough cash and enough income. Yeah. And so I just made the decision to stay and run this foreign student, this training program, fly charter, um, and um and you know, just stay with the company. And there was a point in 1991 where um I was thinking of leaving and s and I told my wife, you know, I I think really want to go fly fires, maybe go to Alaska for a summer or something like that. And um and then I was approached by one of my students who was the uh guy named Ed Cooley, who was the founder of Precision Cast Parts, which was one of Oregon's Fortune 500 companies. Uh Precision Cast Parts is the world's leader in manufacturing castings, blades, and fans for jet engines. They still are number one in the world. They were bought out by Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffett in I think 2016 for like 38 billion. But Ed was my student, and Ed had an interest in helicopters since he had been uh at Harvard getting his MBA, and he had tried to get hired by Bell, Piasecki, and Command or Cayman, um, and none of them were hiring, so he came to Oregon to start a little casting division. He he was getting ready to retire in ninety-one, ninety-two, and um, and I was thinking of leaving Hillsborough, um, and um and Ed approached me in um in ninety one and said uh what are you gonna do? And I said, uh nobody knows this, but I'm going to resign and try to get a job up north and uh in Alaska. He uh he said, Why don't we do something together? And I was like, What? And he goes, why don't you tell the owner of Hillsborough helicopters you want to buy them out? And uh that um and and I'll back you a hundred percent. And I said, Ed, it's a white elephant, it's struggling, you know, it's uh I know I I want to be a pilot, I don't want to do that. Um uh thanks but no thanks. And he was like, Yeah, don't be rash. Think about this. And I went, Ed, I really don't want to do that. And he goes, Don't don't give me an answer. Um think about it and let's talk in the next two to four weeks. And so I went back and forth um a hundred times. I don't know. You know, want to fly if Warren Buffett was asking me that question, you know, hey, I like you, I want to do something with you, and I'd say thanks, but no thanks, Warren. Ed Cooley was like that kind of character, Warren Buffett.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Was the was the business for for sale then? It was a s

SPEAKER_00 22:00

He was just willing to back you because he believed in whatever he sought. I think he wanted to have fun. And he remember, in in 1947, he was at Harvard. He was graduating. He tried to get on with three of the main helicopter manufacturers, OEMs, got turned down, spent his career building this multi-billion dollar company, a Fortune 500 company. He was learning to fly helicopters at 65 years old. And flew airplanes, got his license flying helicopters with me as an instructor. And he just, you know, he wanted to do something fun. And in 1947, he wrote a thesis on the future of the commercial helicopter industry, which did not exist in 47. The first helicopter, from what I understand, went to work with a guy named Carl Brady who developed a company called ERA, which became one of the largest helicopter companies in North America for a while. And Carl Brady took a Bell 47 with a Lycombing engine in it and put it to work in northern Alaska. And so that was a Ed had done a thesis a year before on the commu uh future of the industry. So he'd spent all this time thinking about it and hadn't done it, hadn't done anything. And then, you know, he learned to fly and he and I got along really well. Um I w I think back on it and and I'm I, you know, I because I had been a martial art instructor and then I was teaching helicopter flying, I I was I was tougher on students than I probably should have been. Here's a guy, 30 years my senior. He was just so humble and receptive and really a great student. And he and I, you know, we laughed a lot, sometimes we cried together. Um, you know, uh we just had this uh, you know, kind of bonding experience.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

So his thought was, I'm gonna back this purchase, you're gonna you're gonna run it, he's gonna fill some kind of helicopter hobby, business thing that he wanted to kind of go after, and like why not? He's got he's got all he's already kind of built his business.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yeah. Well, so a couple weeks after that, he and I are flying over Oregon City coming coming west towards Hillsborough, and I said, Hey Ed, uh, I have a counter proposal for you. You buy it, I'll run it. I don't know if I can turn it around. It was I think it was just barely making it at that point. Um, and if I can't um be gentle with me, I need a paycheck. Uh just give me notice so I can find another job. Yeah, but give me a two to three years to see if I can do this. I I don't know if I'm smart enough or capable enough to turn this around. We agreed to it. I said, you buy it though. I'm not I said, if you're buying it because you want me to buy it from you, don't do it. I can't promise you I ever want that level of financial responsibility. I just want to I really want to fly, but I'll do this because it it was Ed, you know. And um, and so um so we agreed. And but I said, you know, you buy it and we can talk. I'm open to talking later, but I can't promise you that I'll want to ever buy it from you. In 1999, at one point he approached me and said, Um, what do you think about buying out the company? And I go, I don't know, what do you think? And he goes, I think you should. And I said, Yeah, you're probably right. And we bought Carol and I bought the company in September 28th of 1999.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

When he asked you to run it, you this is kind of your first, you know, quote unquote, you know, leadership position, right? Like this. Did you feel like you were ready for that step?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Well, I I taught martial arts and probably a couple thousand students, uh, and I ran dojos and helped build a dojo and um and then I owned my own construction company and you know, I had I had a level of confidence at that point about leadership. Yeah uh not that it was very polished or sophisticated, but I uh you know, I would I had a level of confidence probably mostly from the martial arts. And was Ed also a good kind of leader to kind of help you? Ed was incredible. Um yeah, he uh uh his office was, you know, door was six feet from my door, and every morning we for the first, you know, probably two to three years, we'd start off the morning with kind of his list of questions or thoughts, and I'd have my list of questions and thoughts. And um and we t we turned the company around pretty quickly um and grew it at about 20% a year pretty consistently for the better part of 20 some years.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

So did he keep on flying?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

He flew, uh he was working on his commercial rating and his instrument rating when he was 76 years old, and he he had a and he was quite healthy, uh ate a very good diet, um, exercised, walked, uh, was pretty lean, um, and um and his health turned just on a dime, and uh he passed away December 4th of um 2000. He was an extraordinary guy. I still I love the guy, you know, just uh he was fun and you know um, you know, he was I I I asked him at one point, I said, Were you did you ever have to be an SOB? Uh you know, did you ever feel like you were an SOB with you know as a manager running a company? And he goes, Oh sure. And I went, Why when? When you fired people? And he goes, No, I don't think ever, I don't I don't think I was ever looked at as an SOB because I had to let someone go. And I went, how did you do that? And he goes, you know, I just you know tried to respect the people and and know that I, you know, it was a life-changing event for him, and so gave them a lot of notice and trying to get them on board, you know, and make them successful, but they didn't want to be on board and they couldn't stay.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

But what do you think he would say now, seeing this place? He Carol and I talk about that, my family and I do, and he would be well, his daughters shared it with me as well, and he'd just be stunned. Yeah. You you know, he believed in it probably more than I did. Uh at what when he was when he was uh towards the end of his life, I think I was probably the only non-family member that was able to spend time with him. And um and I showed him the last time I showed him a profit and loss statement, he was like, See, I told you so. And he at that point, you know, he was he was near the end. Yeah and he was just really happy for me. So that's really special. And I I I w yeah, I I asked his wife at one point, I said, um why me? And she said because he saw himself in you and you guys had a lot of fun together, you know, and uh and he trusted you.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

So but how much do you think from your own perspective, how much of what the success has been has been about the passion of what you are doing here?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Well the passion is what keeps you going do during the miserable times because if you're not passionate, you you just kind of want to give up. And I I think that's true for almost everything, you know. If you don't have passion, uh you're not in love with it or you're not committed to it, it's like a marriage. You're gonna you're gonna find something else to do. Finding the right people, hiring the right people to help build the company. And and it, you know, through the years, it's just finding good staff. And I would say today is the best group of people we've ever had. They get along well. Um, you know, as we've grown and been successful, we've been able to pay standard or above uh have the equipment that people want to work on and fly. You know, our latest purchase is the order of uh Airbus H-145s D3s, which are state-of-the-art uh aircraft.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Um is that what we were talking about about the Forest Service contract? So for someone who's not who sees those helicopters out there fighting fighting fires, tell me about just kind of like you know, general, going from the Bell aircraft that have been using to kind of what you've kind of helped kind of foster here.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, so so we we do today as a company, we don't we don't do any flight training. We are we are an MRO where we work on aircraft, we represent like 50-sum manufacturers, OEMs, uh vendors and suppliers, like Honda Jet, uh Bell, Airbus, Cessna, Cirrus, um, Garmin, a whole bunch of you know companies like that. And the other part of our business is we fly. We manage airplanes for people. Uh we buy and sell aircraft, we sell parts worldwide. We have an FBO, we sell fuel and service aircraft that roll up on a ramp. But we also, our main income is we operate a fleet of turbine helicopters for firefighting, uh, search and rescue, department of defense, and then we do a lot of work for local utilities and such off-the-ramp charter type stuff. And um and one of our core businesses through the years has been uh operating type two medium bell helicopters, which is called the two the Bell 205A1 Plus Plus, which was designed in the 1950s. And um and there were uh there were thousands of Hueys built, and there were like 330 some uh Bell 205A1 Pluses built, A1s built, uh which were the um civilian version of the Huey. And so about 20 years ago, the Forest Service approached me, uh 17 years ago, 18 years ago, approached me and said, uh, what do you think the future of the 205 is? Because it's aging. It you know, designed in the 50s, yeah. And I said 16 more, four more contract cycles, 16 more years. And and about 12 years ago, I um the Forest Service asked me uh and said, you know, what do you think the replacements could be? And so I started looking at all Sikorsky, Augusta, Leonardo, um, Bell, um, Eurocopter, which is now Airbus, called Airbus. We identified the 145 working with Airbus and basically said, you know, if you could do something with the rotor system, something with the engine, and make it lighter, that could be the replacement. That conversation was 12 years ago. And about three to four years ago, they came out with a D3. And the D3, we bought our first one uh about three years ago, and we've ordered more of those uh for uh forest firefighting, and it's been it's a very successful program on this point. So that's the replacement of the 205A1. 205 will still be used for call when needed and for state forestry, but it's it's just because it's an aging aircraft, they'll probably fly they won't fly uh firefighters uh for uh U.S. Forest Service personnel in it anymore. It'll just be for dropping water and moving equipment, probably. Have you flown all the helicopters here? I've flown them, but I'm not exper I'm not checked out in the 205, uh, you know, the 407, I was checked out in the Airbus products, you know, they're they're expensive schools, and I threatened my uh director of operations. I'm gonna go get I'm going to school and I'm gonna get checked out in that and and he kind of rolls his eyes because it's about it's about a hundred thousand bucks uh for the factory checkout, fifty thousand and fifty thousand training with us. And that's just a waste of money to put me through it. I I've flown those machines with Franz or with Brian, and um and I love them, but it's just not I I'm cheap. It's not it's just a waste of money checking me out on one of those.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

What makes a helicopter a good flying m machine from a pilot's view? Like what do you enjoy when you go out and fly in a helicopter that makes you think, oh wow, this one's is a really nice flying helicopter?

SPEAKER_00 34:45

There isn't a there is not a helicopter I don't like flying. A Robinson R22, R44, Jet Ranger, Long Ranger, 407, A Star 145, uh 500. I they're they all are different. Uh it's like that there's not an airplane I don't enjoy flying. I f I fly an open cockpit, twin-engine seaplane. I like the engineering side of aircraft and and understanding systems and the challenges of every one of that. I mean, you you as a pilot, you you I know that's how you feel as well. You climb in something new and you just you just are hungry to understand everything about that that machine.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

We had a picnic at Lane Community College where they would take all the fixed wing pilots, we'd go out to a small little out station and they'd bring the R22 out, and they would bring it into a hover, a fixed wing pilot and uh instructor, and they would just give you this the a cyclic. Yeah. They they wouldn't give you the clip or the pedals. Or the pedals, and just try to hold it into a hover. Right. And the average fixed wing pilot would last about four point two seconds before the instructor would have to take it over. And then they'd bring you on a cool ride. What's the key to a hover? Because I lasted about three seconds. Because it starts going left, and what does a fixed wing pilot do? Go like this.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah. Um, pressure versus movement, almost imperceptible adjustments. And you know, I have I had a student who immediately could hover. Most people can't. And you know, it takes it takes a few hours, three or four hours, and then you can kind of hold it and then get hit by a little bit of wind or something, and you know, but there's a point where you just you got it. You just get it. And and and somebody described this to me years ago. They said, you know, the synopsis in the brain, just the how things work, that we are we are lineal in our thinking, horizontal in our thinking. We don't think about doing this. And so um, you know, it's just something the human brain, you know, uh uh it just has not developed into. And so it it that you can take off in an airplane, you understand. You take off and you know, aerodynamics, and you create lift and you fly out. Doing this and controlling, you know, the directional control and um, you know, attitude and everything in a helicopter just takes a different skill set that most humans don't have. And it takes some time of of uh of wallowing around in a helicopter before you get it. Some people are natural at it, but very few.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

It sounds like you're talking about you're talking about it being a helicopter pilot, but that sounds a lot like leaders and leadership. Because some people think, oh, well, leaders are just born. Because when you're sitting across from the CEO of a company, the tendency would be like, so Max, tell me all about your leadership skill and all this stuff. And you were obviously a natural-born leader, you stepped right into this role, it all came to you naturally, but I know that that's probably not true.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

It's not true. It's not, I mean, I I you know, you know, my first years in leading here, I made a lot of mistakes on things I'm not proud of, you know, just being too tough on employees at times. Um, you know, I was afraid. A lot of it was a fear factor of failing, and I just I just don't fail, you know, I'm not going to fail. And and so if I felt someone pushing back or disrespecting me, I sometimes I'd be too tough. Um and that's probably my greatest regret, you know, as a leader is being too tough. Um and so, you know, but yeah, I mean, I luckily I had a great mentor who was telling me, you know, you, you know, I don't agree with you on that. I don't think you should do that. You know, I remember in negotiations we bought out six companies through the years, and and one of them, uh, you know, I told Ed, I said, I think we could buy it for that price. And he goes, Well, I think it's worth more than that. I said, Yeah, it's worth more than that, but I know we can buy it for that price. And he goes, Well, do you think that's fair? And I go, Yeah, that's fair. He's like, I don't think it is. And what he taught me was he said, you know, leave something on the table. Do don't, you don't, you know, don't you don't have to be that tough in business. And you want to be fair with everybody, even if you're buying out a company. And um, and so, you know, he was, you know, I growing up blogging and Jap Japanese martial arts are different than Chinese martial arts. It's very kind of brutal. You get you get hit, you get whacked. So there is kind of that you know tough, you know, leadership that I had from logging and more Japanese martial arts, which I I realize I I just don't agree with that. That's not who I want to be, not who I want to be as a person or as a father or as a boss, you know. I I want to I want to I I want to build someone up versus you know, kind of, you know, uh uh making them fail before they succeed, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

So how do you lead through challenging times? The t the point at which we are recording this um would be considered a challenging time in the industry, right? Yeah. Um what lessons have you learned? Because this is not the first time that you've been through where you've seen because we've been through COVID and economics in 2008, right? Great.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

That's a really great question, just for, you know, outside of aviation, just for the world in general. But so so as a younger leader, you know, I I was I had a false sense of confidence, I think. Where I kind of I got to the point where I went, we really know the industry. You know, we buy and sell aircraft. We'd order 28 Cessnas, we'd order uh 14 uh uh new models of Bell. I mean, I I got to the point where I just we were hitting so many home runs, uh, you know, selling aircraft and making a lot of money and winning contracts, and we were walking around kind of high-fiving each other that how much better can life be? And then 2008 hit. And it was crushing. Uh, where I I it was we were walking around with long faces going, how much worse can life be? Because we were dealing with the economic struggles and we were dealing with we had an accident uh and our first fatality in our 29-year history, um, and uh and just other things that just were not going as smoothly as they should. And so I went from you know having what I thought was a lot of confidence to not knowing if we were smart enough, good enough, quick enough to survive. And I had enough friends in other industries that were failing and looking at losing their businesses and homes and everything that it was really a tough time and really kind of a time of of uh humility and humbleness to uh go. What came out of that told my staff, I said, you know, I I no longer have that level of confidence about the world's economy, the US economy, or even our industry's uh financial situation. I don't I don't I don't it was kind of a false sense of confidence I previously had, but what I do know is that I am confident in our ability to navigate through the worst of times because we we just did it. How old do you feel in your brain? Um I'm 71 and sometimes I'm feeling very much of the 71. But I I just you know last year I rode a thousand miles through the Himalayas on a motorcycle, and and I that's more of a guy that's in his twenties or thirties. But I'm I'm I'm it's not like that's easy to make that decision to go ride a motorcycle to Patagonia or through the Himalayas. It it's I'm painfully aware that it could be a life-changing um moment during one of those trips that could end your life or could um uh for sure change the quality of your life if you injured yourself. I don't want to uh uh accept, you know, that I can't do that anymore. And I want to do that as long as I can.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah. Living a lot of my life on the road, probably similar to what you've you've done. One thing I think that I, and I know a lot of other pilots have thought about is I wonder what our kids the impact on this kind of a lifestyle has on our kids, and did I miss out on a lot of things as I and I remember talking to my wife, like, do you think the kids are gonna like how are they gonna remember me when they're older? Is it gonna be dad was always gone, right? And my wife's answer was well, just hang on a second, because I was on the phone and she brought the kids in when they were younger. And she's like, Hey, do you miss dad? Like, yeah, I miss dad. Like, do you think he's always gone? They're like, No, that's just his life, right? Um what's been your our own experience.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

That's a great question. I I you know I basically said I had two regrets. One of them was that I didn't um I I wasn't as present with my mother kind of the last years of her life. She died at 86 and she was lovely, but I was traveling a lot and uh the night before she died that I was in China in Tianjin, China. I was chairman of the International Helicopter Association. I was over there on an air show event and uh she called me and said where are you at? And I said I'm in Tianjin, mom and uh and she said are you happy? And I said Mom, I'm traveling with Carol. I'm always happy when I'm traveling with Carol and she said I'm so happy for you and then she died that night. But with my daughters I also brought up I said you know I another regret was probably I mean I really loved the the adventure of building the company and I did martial arts and traveled to Japan to train with the world master so I I was gone for you know uh for martial arts and for for aviation and I made a comment I said you know I I regret that I traveled so much and I wasn't as present for the kids and the kids were both there and Carol said how do you guys feel about it and they go you were always there for birthdays and dance recitals and piano recitals and you know events we and I I don't think they miss me that much. And so so you know I I don't know if that was the whole story with them but I you know I was gone quite a bit and so like you I the in my own sense of you know my own consciousness uh you know if I you know as I think about do I feel um do I feel regret about something you know I I could have been a more present you know um son to my mom or more present uh husband or uh father to my kids.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

I'm trying to be that way now as much as I can how how important has the choice to be to marry Carol and have her in your corner throughout your life how important was that choice?

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Huge huge we've been together forty three years and uh and you know she's my best friend and um Ans you know has allowed me to focus on business. Like when I told her I hey I'm gonna ride a motorcycle from Alaska to Argentina she didn't say no and she could have she could have said I don't want you doing it but she didn't uh I'm going to the Himalayas to ride motorcycles she didn't say no. Uh why not fly helicopter she she was kind of dubious about will it ever will we ever see any you know com uh compensation for it. But you know it that turned out pretty good for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Well when you sit here now in this building this is kind of um a foundational piece here in the Northwest certainly in the Hillsboro area the Portland area um when you think back on all those from that 19 year old kid from you know working with your dad and the the logging traveling the the world uh your family your kids and just how fortunate you've been to be able to build this when you look back on all of it now what do you find yourself when you wake up in the morning what are you grateful for?

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Oh just everything I I wouldn't trade this uh life or adventure for anything I I feel like I'm the luckiest guy alive but you know I think most of our industry feels that way most friends of mine that are pilots or even you know mechanics wouldn't trade this industry for anything some of them you know maybe struggled or don't like traveling as much you know as they did but but most of us feel like this has been a pretty cool adventure to be involved in aviation. Well thank you so much fun for sitting down here I love your questions and just your thoughtfulness and I just appreciate you as a uh someone to chat with it I want to continue the conversation this is the perfect place to be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Thank you Max oh you know one thing I did want to ask you though before we go what was the major award that you got there's something about you were honored at what was that on is that where John Travolta is down there is that the it's called Legends of Aviation Living Legends of Aviation. How does it feel to be a living legend?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Yeah embarrassing um and but cool yeah because you have access to some really interesting folks you you would be you know your playground wanting wanting to talk to people that are extraordinary.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

So yeah with access to all these helicopters and airplanes around here if you could have one final flight you and Carol are going to go up for a beautiful sunset flight what plane helicopter are you going to hop in? Where are you guys going? You gonna go over the Oregon Coast or the mountains?

SPEAKER_00 48:51

It'd be the it'd be the Beaver or the Lockwood air cam open cockpit with music going um and yeah um and it would probably be the San Juan Islands amongst the islands. Beautiful up there isn't it sunset or sunrise sunset. We don't have to get up that early then that's right that's right well uh I don't have anything else Mac do you have to do Brendan thank you uh just uh pleasure meeting you I look forward to just continuing our friendship in the future sounds good and thank you everyone for checking out the podcast we'll see you next time